Hi The S, there's this guy that keeps deleting my article Foot Clan Resistance; Karai's part of the foot clan. Because of this User I need to undo he's deletion, he's vandalizing my stuff. This User is Ultimate Titan6. Please do something about it I can't keep undoing his deletion candidates. Thanks in advance The S.
He put on the page that the reformed Foot Clan are a "Splinter group" when Splinter has no knowledge these ninjas exist for all we know. Plus, Karai is in full control of the Foot Clan now, being the leader of the Foot Ninjas, wearing the Kuro Kabuto, and taking over Shredder's lair. If there is a resistance force, it is Shredder and his six mutants. He doesn't even have foot bots anymore.
Hi, I'd like to let you know that the character section for the 2012 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles needs to be updated with the information up to now. As it is locked so that administrators can edit it, I was wondering if you can add the information needed like Gwendoline Yeo voicing Shinigami.
This isn't a wiki question, but a Technodrome Forums question. As you probably know, Goku made more dumb accounts and got banned. ToTheNines and GoldMutant think my account (still pending) is a Goku account, but I've never met Goku and am a different person. Can you back me up on the forum? Thanks.
In the few years I've been on this wiki, it's been my understanding that "allies" referred to an overall group of mutual allies. As in, the allied faction, a.k.a. "any one of the various good guys." With members of that faction each having a protagonistic element, they are all each other's allies. This is especially meaningful when stories focus less on one of the four turtles themselves and more on a supporting character, such as Slash (The Meeting of the Mutanimals), April (White Horses), Karai (The Amulet), etc. This is especially common in the various comics, where characters can be more of an ensemble and the story's focus and character development can be passed around.
And if the four turtles can't be considered "allies," then it would seem to be that neither could April O'Neil, nor Casey Jones, nor Splinter, nor Shadow Jones, but then we ask ourselves "where do we draw the line?" When the very importance of characters themselves can ebb and flow, and when they seem more "main" sometimes and more "marginal" at others, the very distinction starts seeming arbitrary. If one were to say Splinter or April can't be considered main characters, then it can spark a pointless avoidable debate.
It is simpler just to see "allies" as the overall group of each other's allies, including the central protagonists. Any other definition seems unnecessarily arbitrary and idiosyncratic.
Another thing to consider, is that if it's just about who are allies to the turtles, then depending on the story, the four turtles don't always maintain the same set of allies, which led to categories like Allies of Leonardo Hamato (MNT Gaiden). Another example is Michelangelo (Mirage) and his new genocidal Triceraton allies (like T'Zirk), and sometime back I added that Michelangelo to Villains (Mirage) because he's become a genocidal maniac who's committing mass murders of innocents out of sheer revenge. Then there's characters like Shadow Jones (Mirage), who may or may not be fated to become a villain and actually stop being an ally, and with her Uncle Raphael (Mirage) slated to gradually go insane in just about every Mirage TMNT future story, he's gradually becoming a wild card character too. Michelangelo (IDW) also left his family (technically he's still not part of their new venture), and though they share many of the same allies, they aren't necessarily sharing all the same allies, either. TMNT stories don't always have trivial black-and-white character dynamics of good vs. evil, and that great moral grey area is actually one of the things that can make them even more interesting.
To more directly answer your question:
Why would a turtle qualify as their own ally?
The answer is:
Leonardo is an ally of Donatello, Raphael and Michelangelo.
Donatello is an ally of Leonardo, Raphael and Michelangelo.
Raphael is an ally of Leonardo, Donatello and Michelangelo.
Michelangelo is an ally of Leonardo, Donatello and Raphael.
As a group, they are among "the allies," which also include the other allies they can rely upon, including Splinter, April, Casey and so forth.
Eh, sorry for the flurry of comments. Your rationale really caught me off-guard, is all, since it's the first I've heard it since I registered here in December 2013.
All right. Sorry for my burst of anxiety there. XD I can get OCD about data-keeping conventions, as you've noticed. (Okay, so this isn't a crisis. I suppose I'm on edge after the effects of the panic attack I had Monday. It's never fun to feel the rug pulled out from under me, especially when it comes to data-keeping conventions.)
Now, I've consolidated my multiple initial comments into just one post (nothing has been removed), and I've expressed many of my reservations about your allies categorization rationale there. I could say more, but I think that has to be it for right now, because I'm decidedly too high-strung at the moment.
Actually, I can add something informationally, rather than an argument for or against something:
Since I came on this wiki, virtually all the articles on the four turtles have been categorized as allies. I had good reason to assume this was always meant to be the case. I'm actually genuinely surprised you were against that, because those articles have been so-categorized for years now.
Yeah I see it this way (sorry to keep using other comics as example but... whatevs)
The turtles are the main characters. The allies are their well.. allies. Of themselves as a whole and individually (like April to all of them, or just Lucindra to Raph, etc.) Or even allies of allies like Kenya Leavitt.
So on an X-Men Wiki, for an article on Spider-Man he would be an ally. But it'd silly to have Cyclops as an ally. Or in the case of Fantastic Four, Johnny Storm wouldn't be one.
Now if it was one for a singular protagonist: i.e. Spider-Man himself, or let's say Batman... everyone who isn't the main character himself and helps out would be fair game.
Wait, where are you getting that the Turtles had been classified as Allies since before you got here? The only ones that are listed as such are the Amazing Adventures ones and Don and Raph of Mirage and you were the ones that added them.
I mean, in the articles that were already here when I started editing heavily in 2004. When I started writing Amazing Adventures articles, I wrote them by analogy of other series' articles that already existed. It was a logical approach. AA main turtle articles are categorized as allies because other series main turtle articles have also been categorized as allies for quite some time.
You know...2012 TV series, Mirage, Archie, etc. I wouldn't be able to remember exact perfect examples years later, but I'm sure they all have edit histories. My point is, a pattern was already established for me to accept and carry on.
Ahh, much better. (Don't ask how I calmed myself down. XD)
Now. It seems to me that the criteria for "allies" will have to be clarified, and—if necessary—renegotiated, perhaps on a per-continuity basis.
In continuities where the four turtles always act as a fantasy team of good vs. evil (perhaps in some of the children's series), perhaps the assumption of "the turtles" having a united set of allies can hold.
In continuities that are less about good vs. evil and more about the lives of character ensembles and grey decision-making, the same assumption seems naïve. This is especially true when turtles sometimes maintain different (even contradictory) pools of allies from each other, and also depending on whether Splinter, April, Casey, etc. are to be considered integral central protagonists with equal importance to the four turtles themselves. Where TMNT becomes more slice-of-life, more film noir, more ambiguous morality, the question of who is an ally is never more complicated. I'm reminded of this exchange in Mirage's City at War:
Raph: What are you saying, Leo? ...We should ally ourselves with the damned Foot Clan? Leo: I'm simply asking you to consider it as an option. Raph: But... We've been at war with them for years! They're our freakin' blood enemies! Leo: Are they? If so, why? Think about it...think back. We're in this because... Because... Mike: ...Because of Master Splinter. Leo: Exactly, Mike. This is his war. Since we were children, Master Splinter taught us, trained us for one thing: To avenge the death of his master, Hamato Yoshi. Since that day—when we first killed the Shredder the threat of the Foot has circumscribed our lives...and through us, Casey's and April's lives, too. Who can blame them for wanting to leave? I know I can't. But now... ...Now we have, with Karai's proposal, an opportunity... A chance to break this chain of vengeance and death... And reclaim our lives. Mike: Leo... What would Splinter say? Leo: I'm unsure... I would gladly die for him...but... ...I don't know if I can give him my life. Don: Leo... We—We must honor Master Splinter. He is our sensei! Leo: I know, Don... Believe me, I know... Raph: Aren't you being a little naive, Leo? As if helping the Foot this one time is gonna change things—! They'll still be there... Doin' what they've always done... Don: Raph's right. These years... I don't think we've fought the Foot just for the sake of Master Splinter. We fight them because they are evil! Leo: Is it really that simple, Don? Is life just black and white? Look, guys—we're not society's saviors. I mean, we've never really gone looking for trouble—the Foot has brought the fight to us. I, for one, would love not having to constantly look over my shoulder...
This changed the tone for the entire rest of the series. They weren't fighters of good vs. evil. They weren't superheroes—in reality, they never were. They were people trying to live their lives and to survive in an already difficult world. From then on, their alliances would be those of practicality far more than those of black and white righteousness. And the turtles themselves would not always do good things, and they wouldn't always have the same allies as their brothers, and the stories would focus more and more on other characters who would form their own exclusive alliances, and sometimes even family would turn against family. (Then comes the question: If an "ally" is only an ally of the turtles, is an ally of April or Casey or Splinter also an "ally" even if they are not necessarily allies of the turtles? You can see how these complications can arise.)
And then there are all the edits I've given the MNT Gaiden articles. MNT Gaiden, despite not being an official publication, deeply resonates with a certain long-established TMNT fan interest that Mirage explored to a smaller extent but the TV shows and even IDW could never completely satisfy, especially now under Viacom's market-image-oriented scrutiny—taking the noir lives of TMNT characters to their logical, dark conclusions, and making damn good drama in the process. And one of the first things you'll notice about its associated allies category, is that Donatello (MNT Gaiden) is not an ally—not because he's one of the turtles, but because he's actually an antagonist and struggling with some pretty horrifying mental illness, only partially caused by his curse, and partially in him all along. Mirage TMNT had much smaller hints of this, but seldom had characters like Don or Casey being arguably evil for more than a page or two. (The most they've done so far is with Michelangelo or Shadow Jones and their eager embrace of their dark sides.)
If there are ever officially-licensed TMNT works (under Viacom) that are allowed to go in such a grey direction, then the assumption of "the allies of the turtles" will most definitely not be a valid assumption. There is evidence that Kevin Eastman has actually tried to, to some extent, with IDW TMNT, but was vetoed by Viacom. And my friends like to discuss how even some of the IDW TMNT characters seem to be surrogates for main characters in ways they'd be considered likely to develop if Viacom might actually allow it; for example, Old Hob seems to be a much greyer, more morally ambiguous expy of Raphael (IDW).
Anyway, my point being, when you delve into the world of truly adult TMNT fans, divorced from the fandom of both kids and of adults who are nostalgic about what they liked as kids, then all sorts of common assumptions about the nature of the TMNT franchise no longer hold. (Even my one-time interest in 2K12 was more about its one-time strong Mirage fan appeal than for any of its kid's appeal, which is why I went from fan to critic in such a hard way during season 3.) I hope these things can help illustrate where I'm coming from as an editor.
I'd also like to make it a point (this is a topic segue, BTW) that I don't readily compare TMNT to superhero comics, because in my core TMNT interest—Mirage TMNT—they were decidedly not superheroes. (To be honest, I'm not interested in superhero comics, and neither are my brothers, nor some of my friends, but we all like Mirage TMNT, especially for its slice-of-life stories, à la True Stories.) Often, when terrible things were going on around them, they'd just shrug and keep going, because they were not heroes.
Even the whole "heroes in a half-shell" thing was a legacy of the kid-friendly superhero-oriented Fred Wolf, not of Mirage. Even where Mirage TMNT had superhero characters (and the premise originally parodied some superhero comics' elements), the turtles themselves were decidedly excluded from this category, especially when they ponder their sheer mortality and resolve, like in City at War, that they are not heroes but just people trying to find peaceful lives. Early volume 4 drives this point home further, where actual superheroes are doing all sorts of heavy-lifting, and the turtles are largely spectators just like any ordinary human.
In many TMNT continuities, the turtles are genuinely heroes, but this is not an assumption that can always be made. That is why I don't make it a habit of comparing the established fleshed-out Mirage TMNT series to Marvel comics, DC comics, etc.
Hardly. These are the kinds of discussions I have with my brothers and friends. :) This is part of what makes adult TMNT stuff fun to read—to analyze afterwards.
One thing you have to realize is that there is plenty of TMNT that is intentionally deeply thought-provoking and encourages this kind of of analysis. It's a feast for well-read literati geeks. That is where I'm coming from. :)
One of my brothers is a university professor with a doctorate in rhetoric. My other brother is a very well-read intellectual who works in a bookstore and has a deep appreciation for the sciences. None of us has an IQ below 130. And all three of us have a special fondness for what adult TMNT literature brings to the table. My professor brother found my Turtlepedia user page and read its walls of text top to bottom, and found it very enlightening. These are the kinds of TMNT fans we are.
What you said was unclear. Your "disagree with the discussions" seems either overly vague or overly broad. Are there specific points you disagree with? (Many different points are raised in discussion and analyzed. Not all of them are a matter of agree vs. disagree, either.) Or is it that you disagree with having the discussions, or that you don't want to participate in such a discussion (which is a personal choice)?
But as for choosing a clearer, more inclusive term, that's something I can help with:
Protagonists might work, but then there's some disagreement whether it can apply to "all the good guys" or just to one "good guy". Still, an advantage of "protagonist" is not defined as specifically good or evil.
When I wikied "good guys" on Wikipedia, it redirected me to hero (hence heroes), but I realized I wasn't sure if that was what I was looking for. Many characters we'd call "good guys" don't have much of an active role in story, but clearly form part of the allied group's moral support network. I also tend to associate "hero" more specifically with a character who rescues someone; that could possibly be overly specific of me, but it's just difficult for me to call Mrs. Jones (Mirage) or Little Girl (2012 TV series) "heroes."
There's also good guys, which is just vague enough, but it also presumes that the main characters are themselves good. As seen in both Mirage TMNT and in MNT Gaiden, this is not always the case (again, Michelangelo and Shadow being Mirage TMNT examples).
There's also fellowship, which very accurately describes a group of characters in common agreement towards a goal, including heroes, allies and friends, even if not all have an active combat or active backup role.
There's also comrades, which is similar to "allies" has more of a sense of camaraderie to it. "You are my comrade. I am your comrade. We are comrades."
There's also support network, and no one would question whether an allied noncombatant is part of that.
I suppose there's also crew.
I think I'm leaning closest to "fellowship." I'd prefer "allies," but you've taken that option away.
And yes, "Antagonists" does sound better than "Villains."
Yeah, sorry for my near pathologically inability to be brief and think in a straight line. XD Not that I don't try, you understand. It runs in the family. We're all essayists who write much longer walls of text than we theoretically need to, but it expresses a much more complete picture in the process. That certainly helps with deep intellectual pursuits, but trying to simplify things is usually actually the more difficult task.
Can I ask u both something and please dont yell at me this time.
Gilgames why do you try to force the admin to do what you want?
The S why do you let him walk on you?
Any other Wiki this would be sorted in 2 seconds.
Just be glad this is not DC wiki. That guy does not post rules and he reverts every change you make without telling you why in seconds. And then when you try to get and answer its either vague or it's nonsense. He reverted an entire para graph once because he did not like just one word that I had use!
I hold discussions and try to be persuasive in my arguments. But I'm still trying to color inside the lines, and I usually accept an administrative final decision. And then, if I am overruled, I will lodge my reservations for the record.
This is not exactly any other wiki. When I first came here, I used my previous full decade of Wikipedia experience to try to open more discussion threads to build consensus for decision making. ...Most people don't respond. This site has many casual short-term users, but only a relatively small number of long-time regular users. And among the heaviest workhorses of wiki maintenance, most of are either admins, former admins, or me. When it comes to people who actually stick around for a long time and do stuff, this isn't a city, or even a quiet village—oftentimes it feels more like a few neighbors in the wilderness. I asked earlier not to be considered as an administrator, because as my Monday episode showed, I have a handful of episodes of instability, and administration requires a more stable personality to be effective.
I have asked my other TMNT fan friends why they don't get involved. And, like The S from his own experience, many don't respect this wiki—but for different reasons than The S has been told. My heavily Mirage-oriented TMNT fan friends see this wiki as more of a bland portal for the most popular annoying/kiddie stuff, so over the years I've worked hard to expand more articles on other series, especially Mirage, Palladium and MNT Gaiden which have been some of my main fan interests. For many entire sections of the wiki, most of the time, I have been the only active editor. There are so many Mirage TMNT topics that, until I paid attention to them, simply didn't exist as articles.
Since this wiki's core community of heaviest editors is such a relatively tiny community, it is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong, The S) that The S has left a lot of the details to other editors. There have been long periods of time when he couldn't be here very often except to see make sure things are running smoothly, and honestly I can't blame him. (How's your health lately, The S?)
And as for my blowup with you, Farceface, on that Monday I was having a day-long panic attack that was already full of really manic happenings even before I encountered you. You came in and did the wrong things at the wrong time, I was probably too brusque, and then you got mad, and I pretty much lost control. I'm really very sorry about that. That three-day suspension I received was probably a good thing.
And yes, I'm very familiar that some Wikia wikis have administrators who seem to have full-fledged personality disorders. Heh, I probably even have one or another. If a wiki scares away all its fans (and TMNT fans are some of the most varied lot under the sun), it doesn't function well. So we all have to be more approachable. Most days for me aren't like Monday was.
Just be glad this is not DC wiki. That guy does not post rules and he reverts every change you make without telling you why in seconds. And then when you try to get and answer its either vague or it's nonsense. He reverted an entire para graph once because he did not like just one word that I had use!
On several fronts, I suppose. Not only did I misconstrue your intentions and statements, but on Monday I was having a pretty nasty panic attack that lasted all day. I know you said I should see a doctor—I do see doctors, and have been for most of my life. The problem with panic attacks is that they take so long to dissipate, and meanwhile I either sit and feel miserable, or I try to channel it into something productive. The problem with channeling is, in the process I become super manic, a lot more than I already usually am, hence the hastily thrown together forum thread proposal. And then when I suddenly saw a user barreling through articles and deleting categories, I had to comment on it, but I think I was a lot more brusque than I should have been. And when he became hostile towards me, it effectively boosted my panic attack, in the process destroying what clear judgment I had left.
The rest of that day was hell. The next morning was an aftershock panic attack. The next morning after that was another, smaller, aftershock panic attack. Then morning after that was more normal, and it's been flushed out of my system.
The problem with me having a panic attack, is that I can't exactly easily say I'm having one when I'm having one. They're already very unpredictable things, and advertising that I'm having one makes them even more volatile and unpredictable by adding even more variables to the mix in the way other people react to it. I can only talk about it in the open now that it's finally dissipated.
And the trigger for the first panic attack? When you told me all your frustrations. I felt really, really bad that I'd contributed to so much stress on your part. Over the past three days, it's all actually had me thinking more about my relationship to this wiki and what I should be doing in the future. But that's not the topic of this post. This is my apology, and I'm sorry for all that.
Anyway, do you remember at all me saying, a while back, that I never want to be made an admin here? (Or perhaps I told Trigger009.) The reason is because I cannot be guaranteed to be stable at all times. Most of the time, I'm fine, and edit with a bit of eager mania. But during a panic attack, the very core of my judgment is altered, and all bets are off. Fortunately, as long as no one's yelling at me, such panic attacks are relatively rare and most never involve Turtlepedia.
Hi, I would like to answer why I did my edit on Ashly Burch. It was because the link was broken and I thought that was the closest thing to an article about April there was since they were both in IDW.
Nah we're slowly building seperate articles for Mutant in Manhattan's characters 'cause it's slightly different than the actual IDW book (for one, Wingnut is an alien in the game and a mutant in the book).
By the way, I'm entirely eager to discuss this. To be honest, I wanted more people to discuss it with when I first wrote the templates. A nice round table discussion. :) Lay out your concerns, your ideas, we can reflect and build on them, and so forth.
You mentioned having an issue with "dudebro" tone. I chose the style I went with because it was informal, sounded less stuffy, and sounded like something a grittier TMNT character might say. The Mature message, "always meant for grownups," is like a semi-polite thing a hard-boiled comics character might tell a preteen child who walks into a bar. I won't say it's perfect, and I'm glad to hear alternative suggestions. "Get lost, kid." would have had too much of a confrontational tone.
Putting aside the wording of that statement, really? From what I remember even the scenes containing outright murder are pretty tame.
It's more a question of the article and the series than the content of the individual issue. Before we started using these templates, the general policy was to keep all descriptions more or less G- or maybe PG-rated, out of concern for all the young children coming to read articles about the cartoons. But some TMNT works have much, much more mature content than that. For IDW TMNT comics, the "not for little kids" template applies to the entire series and every issue as a combined context. This way, we can discuss everything in context (and cross-reference events in other issues as needed) and not run into editorial arguments about whether a description is too mature for kids, especially when the description involved may actually be far less mature than what actually happens in the pages.
That makes a lot more sense, but, and I appreciate this is something that should be left up to democracy, the wording really should be changed to convey that better.
As is it looks like an obnoxious dudebro telling "little kids" to stick to their lane when he's talking about Batman's rouges gallery being turned into 80's action figures. Whereas tame as those Foot Soldier deaths are I could get just going with a T for Teen tag for the whole series.
The Dr. Who wiki has (or had it's been a while since I checked) a pretty good one. "Most of Dr. Who is family friendly. Some of it isn't. This is one of those." Something to that effect. I do remember the wording would specify when the wiki felt the need to advise viewer discretion and when something objectively wasn't for younger viewers.
Then I replied:
It's true, the template does intentionally adopt some informal language. The problem before was that using more formal wording had a negative effect, making the templates look like badges of shame trying to apologize for not being kid-friendly.
One thing you need to realize, is that TMNT was, in its original form, never for children, and there are plenty of TMNT fans whose interest has always been through the eyes of adults. In particular, both Mirage Studios and its readers have at times been mocking of the 1987 TV series many of them never liked.
But since there wasn't really a deeper discussion of what the wording should be, I guess you can suggest something else. If the message sounds "dudebro," it's because it was meant to emulate some of the grittier hard-boiled tone found in Mirage TMNT dialogue. And what kinds of characters most personify Mirage gritty and hard-boiled? Characters like Raphael and Casey Jones, of course. :)
And then you opened this thread on your message wall. :)
Sorry for the delay, had a big family get together so starting this conversation was really bad timing on my part. As for the tag, yeah I do feel it's condescending especially when you hang it over something like The Ninja Turtles meet Batman. But for Mirage and Image, which both hinge on the fact the guys flat out try to revenge kill a man and then Leo decapitates him...yeah. And that's just violence, never mind...let's call it "romance". So I get warning people.
On the other hand "YOU'RE A LONG WAY FROM NICKTOONS" is an odd sentiment to me because while the Nick show is very much not that, an equally vital plot point is that Shredder loses half his face to a fire and they actually show you said gross face fairly frequently. Sal Commander has a lil' hole in his side that lets you see inside him. Every third episode is a Cronenberg tribute. All well within TV-Y boundaries sure, but I'd argue that for the IDW stuff specifically? I think a younger fan who could handle all that would do okay with something like the Shredder fighting his way out of hell or Rat King taking away Leo's mouth. (Though there is actual decapitation in there too, but if that can fly under a general teen pass...)
And the problem really isn't being informal. I'd actually be really down with the Wiki adopting a TFWiki style approach but that's neither here nor there. As is I just feel like the tag does unintentionally come across like it's talking down to a certain audience which, let's be honest, is going to hunt down this stuff if they actually want to check it out no matter what age they are regardless of what anyone says. If nobody cares then the tags don't have to be changed but since you're open to suggestions I'd argue the Dr. Who suggestion is the best if you actually want to be matter of fact. Some of TMNT is family friendly. Some of it really isn't.
Also if you wanna go every other wiki route and work in quotes from the franchise:
"Hmm. Kids. [insert Splinter style explanation of why material is mature]
"Wise man says some material is really [T for teen or M for Mature or whatever rating system]
For mature specifically though, there's an issue of Tales of the TMNT where Raph and Casey are getting kid Shadow ready for her first day of school and then break down and weep in each others arms chibi style. So maybe a picture of that with "Our little fan's all grown up!" and an explanation for why the material miiiiight not be for them?
And there's that little Raph moment in Turtles Forever where he's really taken by the Mirageverse so the tag could be "This is my kinda place! Grim, gritty...I like it!" [Just because RAPH likes it doesn't mean you will. Some Ninja Turtles stuff is intended for older audiences.]
What about the black and white parts of the templates? "You're not on NickToons anymore!" I liked the visual similarity to a mature advisory warning while poking a bit of fun at TV-Y7 expectations.
Also, if I recall, the 1990s films were PG, not PG-13, so I wouldn't necessarily give them a teen template anyway.
If there were a franchise quote in the teen template, I'd prefer it to be from a work that is teen-rated.
That said, many Mirage comics are indeed more teen than mature rated, but the occasional Mirage stories (like Bodycount and parts of City at War and Blind Sight) are most certainly not teen-rated, but they form a combined canon so the mature template remains for them all because we are not a ratings bureau.
My other concern is that templates should not appear in any way to be badges of shame, nor should they be signs encouraging users into inappropriate edits or comments.
Lots of stuff to consider.
Hm, now that I'm having a humorous, cattier moment, and though it's probably not the best idea, I admit I'd be really, really tempted to use an image/quote like this for the mature template:
Hey The S! I've found this rather intresting video about Krang from the 80s show. It actually explains what his original body looks like! (It can be a bit cringey in some spots but trust me. Its worth it)